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In the latest episode of “Drilling Deeper,” Pit & Quarry’s Kevin Yanik and Jack Kopanski take a deep dive on safety and health as it relates to the aggregate industry. Kevin and Jack detail how safety evolved in recent decades as value No. 1 for producers, discussing the tremendous gains made in pits and quarries and where industry leaders are focused today. Additionally, the P&Q editors dig into the Mine Safety & Health Administration’s final rule on mobile equipment, with Kevin reflecting on his experience at the 2024 Operations, Health & Safety Seminar put on by the Ontario Stone, Sand & Gravel Association.
Thank you to the sponsor of this episode, Geologic! GeoLogic uses scientific investigation and engineering design to provide innovative solutions to the most challenging mining, construction and development issues in a safe, effective, and cost-efficient manner. When it needs to be done right the first time, call GeoLogic at 770-824-4212.
Transcription
Kevin Yanik: Hey everybody, welcome back to Drilling Deeper: A Pit & Quarry Podcast. I’m Kevin Yanik, editor-in-chief of Pit & Quarry magazine. We’ve got episode seven on tap for you, focused on safety and health in aggregates. But first, let’s thank our episode sponsor. That would be Geologic. Geologic uses scientific investigation and engineering design to provide innovative solutions to the most challenging mining, construction and development issues in a safe, effective and cost efficient manner. When it needs to be done right. The first time call Geologic at 770-824-4212. Thank you, Jack, or welcome in Jack, good to see you again.
Jack Kopanski: Thank- Thank you, Kevin? Thank you?
KY: I’m just put all the salutations out there, using them as transitions.
JK: It’s great to … Great to be here, I think. Yeah, it’s great to be here. Yeah.
KY: Yeah, well thanks for being here.
JK: Yeah, no problem.
KY: Part of the job, I guess, now.
JK: Yeah. I don’t really have a choice. But I’m glad to be here nonetheless.
KY: Yeah. It’s kind of amazing that we’ve got six of these in the can and this is Episode 7. It’s been a lot of fun, honestly, doing the podcast, and we’ve been getting some good feedback from listeners and viewers, because we’re on YouTube as well. I think it took us, you know, a while to kind of get this into our work routine, Jack, because we’re putting out the magazine regularly. But yeah, I feel like we’ve got a good rhythm established with working this in and we’re here in Q1, and the travel schedule is underway for you and me, and we’re going to have a lot of fodder for the episodes to come this year.
JK: Yeah, I know coming in we were both a little nervous, or maybe perhaps a little skeptical of how this would go, what this would be like. Like you said, incorporating it into our schedule, kind of doing something a little different, you know? We’re used to sort of sitting behind a screen and just making words and now we’ve got to sit in front of a camera and you know, gotta be able to do a little bit better thinking on our feet, you know? In writing, you get to obviously delete and change as much as you want. But when you’re talking you … sometimes you only really get one shot at it. But no, yeah, I think it’s been great. It’s great to hear, like you said, some of the feedback from listeners and those that are taking it in either audio or visually, we certainly appreciate everyone that has been listening and giving us their time. Hope we continue to make it worth it for you all. So, thank you for that. And yeah, it’s awesome to be here on Episode 7 already.
KY: Yeah, January 29, the day after the NFL’s conference championship games. Some good ones. I guess you could say the Baltimore-Kansas City game wasn’t so good, but it was close. You know, the NFL is always printing money it seems like. I mean, watching these games, and it’s gotta-watch television. So were you surprised by the outcomes and what do you think about the Super Bowl matchup, Jack?
JK: Well, I’m definitely intrigued by the Super Bowl matchup. I think that was probably the second best as far as competitiveness goes. I think Baltimore-San Francisco probably would have been the best game. Chiefs-San Francisco is definitely the second best in my opinion. As much as I was pulling so hard to see the Lions in there. Very Cleveland-like team, a Cleveland-like city, never been to the Super Bowl. Such a great story this year. Dan Campbell and Jared Goff, I was pulling hard for them. My wife and I were at a bar watching the game and the first half finished and we’re like, “Oh, we know how this is gonna end.” So we went home and I followed the rest of the game on my phone and it’s like, “Oh, it’s 24-17. Oh, it’s 24-24. Oh my god, the Niners are up 27 to 24.” So it just sort of spiraled out of control for the Lions, unfortunately, but I can’t necessarily say I’m surprised by the outcome of the Kansas City-Baltimore game either.
I mean, Lamar just played like garbage. That one interception he had in the endzone where he threw in the triple coverage, I’m like, “I can do that. Put me on the field, I can throw in a triple coverage and throw an interception like that,” but I might not be able to make it look as good as he did. But was pulling hard for the Lions. Whoever came out of the NFC I was gonna root for it because being in Cleveland, we obviously don’t like the Ravens and sick of the Chiefs and Patrick Mahomes and Travis Kelce and Taylor Swift, I don’t know. I was telling people I don’t know how Travis Kelce and Patrick Mahomes have time to play football between all the commercials they’re shooting, but they find the time and they’re still pretty good at it, so let’s go Niners, down with Kansas City.
KY: I’m with you. I think I agree with almost everything you said, and I think the only thing I would add is that yeah, being a Clevelander like you’re saying, was pulling hard for Detroit. In Cleveland-like fashion, it seemed like, that collapse unfolded. Not even a full quarter, it was like 12 minutes. So, not a Lions fan, but was yesterday and sad to see them go down like that.
JK: Yeah, unfortunately, like I said, whoever came out of the AFC I was gonna have to root against. Niners or Lions, didn’t really matter much. Honestly, I’ll give sort of the cop-out answer, I’m also just hoping for a good game at this point now that I don’t have a real rooting interest. Just give me something entertaining to watch. Brock Purdy being in there is a fun story and nothing good I can really say about the Chiefs, so I’m not going to say anything at all.
KY: Ditto, right? Well, as I mentioned toward the top of the podcast, we’re going to talk about safety and health today. Feel like we’ve touched on it here and there on the podcast in past episodes, and for us as a magazine, safety is one of the three pillars that we built the magazine on when we redesigned it eight years ago. Pit & Quarry, if you’re a longtime reader, you look at the covers of the magazine and we’ve had different logos – Pit & Quarry‘s had different logos over time. So if you pull out a 2015 edition of the magazine you’ll notice that a 2016 edition and forward, it’s different. The logo was changed at that time, and then we kind of reevaluated the content that we were putting out there. We surveyed our readers and we really assessed the sorts of stories that we were telling. I don’t think we got too far away from what we were doing beforehand, but we got a little bit more structured in terms of how we are organizing content.
And now again, if you look at the sections that we’re covering in the magazine, we’ve got equipment and technology — or P&Q Tech — as you see with the little bug at the top of those red pages. And then we got P&Q Business, which is our second pillar, as we call it here internally at the magazine, and safety. It’s the yellow bug toward the top of each page in the back of the magazine. So we’re covering things from a safety standpoint in terms of best practices, and we’ve got our partners at Ogletree Deakins, Bill Doran and Margo Lopez, who are providing content about the Mine Safety & Health Administration and you know, best practices related to working with MSHA, in partnership with them. They’re the overseer or the regulator of the mining industry. So, safety is fundamental to what we do at Pit & Quarry, and wanted to get into a little bit more in depth here today, because it’s got an interesting story. If you think about the history of the aggregate industry, the history of the mining industry, safety hasn’t always been a big value or a top value for for aggregate producers. If you go back 100 years ago, or probably even 50 years ago, I think the way we valued it or didn’t value it at all, is markedly different than where we are today, here in 2024. You talk to any aggregate producing company today, a lot of them have blueprints for success or mission statements.
And safety, the word safety or something related to that, is pretty much fundamental to what these companies believe in, to what our readers believe in. For most, or for many, I would even say, it’s value number one. Now Jack, I know we’ve talked about some of the numbers that we’ve seen online. I’m always going back over these, and they’re available on the Mine Safety & Health Administration’s website, I think their website’s msha.gov. But they have a lot of interesting data that kind of shares or reflects the history I’m talking about here with safety in the mining industry. You know, I know we’ve had conversations in the past about how astounding it was, you go back to the year 1900 and data was being tracked, not by MSHA at that time, because MSHA didn’t come to be until 1977. But it’s unbelievable to see the number of people working in industry, into the hundreds of thousands across coal, and then metal/nonmetal, but the number of fatalities that happened, I’m talking thousands or, you know, there were some years that had 3,000 coal mine deaths. There weren’t any cases in metal/nonmetal, necessarily, where we had over a thousand, but I mean, deep into the hundreds of fatal safety incidents that would happen each year in the early 20th century. And really, really good thing to see that these numbers have come down remarkably over the years, and we’re still aiming for zero fatalities as the mining industry. We’ve been trying to hit that mark, we’re always going to be trying to hit that mark as we go forward. But Jack, just to bring you in here, I mean, what are your thoughts and reflections as you kind of think about these numbers and how they’ve changed over 124 years now?
JK: Yeah, I remember when we published a graph sort of looking at this, and I think sort of the 10 year spans we looked at sort of showing how drastically fatalities have dropped off since, again, 1900. And looking at MSHA’s formation in 1977, where fatalities have gone from there. We look at this year with 40 fatalities, and that’s the most fatalities we’ve had in a decade. It’s obviously a number, like you said, we’re always going to be striving to reach zero and it’s sort of those, you know, one is one too many thought process. But at the same time, you look at the improvements going from a thousand-plus deaths to 40. You know, obviously those are still 40 lives that have been lost, but I mean the improvement in that stretch of 124, 125 years almost now is just remarkable.
And I remember … Obviously, one of the things we do with the magazines is we have a section every month called A Look Back where we kind of dive into old photos and sort of, you know, show how things used to be, show how pieces of equipment used to operate. One of my favorite things anytime I go through and I’m looking through those photos — I know we’ve run a few of them in the past — is seeing photos of guys operating loaders, dozers, haulers, whatever, and it’s an open cab there’s there’s nothing keeping them in there. They’re not wearing a helmet. Some of them are smoking pipes. They’re just out there doing … And that’s only looking back 1950s? 1960s maybe? Where, even in this span of 60, 70 years, we’ve improved so much. But looking at, again, over 100-plus years, I mean, the efforts that have been put into increased safety is just remarkable. So I don’t think that can be understated. When you first showed me that data, again a year, year and a half ago, my jaw about hit the floor. Even as we’re sitting here talking about, again, 40 fatalities, which again, is far too many still, it can’t go unnoticed the change and improvements that have been made in the time we’re looking at.
KY: It’s changed, I would argue, in large part because producers said that this is not okay, like, this is not acceptable. You know, we identified that we needed to make improvements through various inflection points throughout the course of our 100-plus 150-year history. Jack, I remember thinking back to … I read one of David McCullough’s books years back about the building of the Brooklyn Bridge. I think this whole mindset permeated, you know, in early America and centuries past where people were dispensable. And today, at least in America, in the US where we’re doing mining, that is totally unacceptable. I think there’s nations around the world today, too, where we see that safety as it relates to industries, including mining, is a very serious issue not taken seriously at all. But you know, in that Brooklyn Bridge incident, I think it probably reflects the mindset and the approach that companies were taking in the industrial age of America, when the next man up was basically the mentality of early American companies. Where it was hard to work and define work in some cases, and you would take what you could get just to make ends meet and put food on the table at certain points of our history.
So, I think wasn’t changed overnight, and we’re still continuously trying to strive for improvement, and again, reach that zero fatalities mark for our industry. But, I think if you even look at other reports that would show how safety is handled and how it’s being measured in our industry, that our industry has probably made some of the greatest gains in US history, and we’re probably one of the safer industries in the country today as it stands right now. I think the fact that we have a spotlight on us with an agency that’s day in and day out overseeing and regulating the mining industry, again, that being MSHA, I think that maybe creates this perception that mining is not safe. But, to your point about the people of our industry today, the companies that are leading in our industry today, I mean, this is a value that’s preached. And it’s not just talk either. I mean, it’s lived, it’s discussed through training, through the regular conversations before people are setting foot in equipment. It’s value number one, I would argue, for the aggregate industry and the mining industry here today in 2024.
JK: Yeah, and one of the instances that I remember a lot is I … back in, I believe, November of ’22, I moderated a panel down in Missouri and one of the members of that panel was Ward Nye, chairman and CEO of Martin Marietta, one of the largest public producers in the country. And we were asking questions about safety, and to sort of paraphrase what he was saying is that, you know, safety for Martin Marietta is a nonnegotiable. Where that’s one of the first things that they will stress to new employees, if you know someone is violating or going against safety protocols. And I do remember him saying this, he says, “That is the quickest way to find your way out of Martin Marietta,” is if you, you know, essentially don’t take safety seriously. And I think that that’s about as strong of a emphasis on that as you can have is someone like that coming out and saying, you know, for a company that’s worth billions of dollars, that their top priority is safety and making sure that everyone that shows up in the morning goes home the same way they got there that morning. So yeah, I think just to echo your point, it’s not only MSHA that takes this seriously, it’s operations around the country, and I think that that has to be applauded.
KY: I think, too, we are continuously assessing where we are with these accidents, and kind of what’s causing accidents. Thinking about it over the years, again, being on Pit & Quarry for almost 12 years, and you read the accident reports or the fatality reports that are out there, and no two are the same, I guess. I mean, the nature of every mine site is different and the hazards that are present are different from site to site, from crushed stone, sand and gravel to coal mining to other types of metal mining. But, I think there’s a few variables that maybe MSHA’s zeroed in on, and I think operators, too, understand that need to be taken seriously and addressed regularly with employees who are going out and working in mines and doing the mining for our country.
One improvement we made is the fact that we’re more efficient with our technology and with our equipment. So, there’s not as many people, I guess I would say, going into mine sites today. Because again, I guess when you look at the statistics over the years, and again, these are from MSHA. And some of the earlier statistics that are available on mining accidents are probably attributed to the US Bureau of Mines, which was established in the early 20th century. And so there were hundreds and hundreds of thousands of people working in mining at one time, and there’s still a good amount of people but I mean, it’s, I guess a fraction of what it was at one time. So there’s fewer people getting into harm’s way and we’ve found ways to be a little bit more practical a little bit safer and more efficient with how we’re operating within the confines of a of a mine, which, you know, has a lot of moving parts. It has trucks, it has, you know, moving variables. So that’s an improvement.
I think training, too, is another big one. And that’s one that we hear about from MSHA, you know, that training has to be taken seriously, like you were saying, with operators. I don’t think there’s an operator out there today who doesn’t value their people and who wouldn’t do what it takes to get them the adequate training, and then some, to make sure that they’re safe. But I think the fact, too, that we’ve had labor shortages in our industry, and you know, we’ve seen a couple of waves, or a couple generations of experienced and talented people retire in the last 15 years, I think that’s forced us to look at alternatives for labor. So some of the experienced people who know how to do the work, who know how to get jobs done within a mine site, you know, they’re not the ones necessarily working there as much as we are seeing the first or the second year person. So some of the accidents that are happening now, a good number of them involve somebody who’s new to the job, or just doesn’t have the years and years of experience that we would often have on mine sites.
So, those are things that I’ve kind of taken notice of, but again, no two accidents are the same. I think MSHA, too, they’re continuously trying to break down what exactly is happening and trying to get a better understanding of what’s happening with accidents and when they happen, but that’s just kind of a brief understanding, from my point of view, of what’s happening out there. You talk about having that awareness, having greater technology, or in some cases, equipment, that helps lead towards safety. I know one of the ways that sort of sticks out to me a lot in equipment news items we might write up on a daily basis is that with a loader or an excavator or any type of mobile equipment that might be used, there’s almost always something where they talk about, “We’ve got 360 cameras. We have I guess more windows or more viewable space from the cab.” There’s the backup detection, where if there’s someone behind you, you’ll get the beep in at one speed, if they’re close, beeps quicker, if they’re closer … And then it’s just screaming at you if they’re right behind you.
JK: I think that that’s impressive, because we talked about how MSHA and how operations are incorporating safety. I think that’s another impressive thing, is how manufacturers are putting an emphasis on it too, because I guess on sort of a very base level, if their equipment’s not safe, no one’s gonna want to buy it, no one’s gonna want to use it. Not only that, but it also, again, just contributes to that idea of operations want safety, so they’re going to want to work with places that provide that safety. Manufacturers want to feel good about what they’re putting out, knowing that they’re not potentially putting people at risk, or at least doing everything they can to not put people at risk. So, that’s just another aspect that I know I see a lot of that I think is just a very cool thing, sort of seeing that from so many different aspects. People, again, safety is so, so, so front of mind for a lot of people.
KY: The technology developments and advancements we’ve seen, to your point, Jack, I think that has to be a contributing factor into why this is a much safer industry. I think at the same time, the fact that we have more technology coming in makes us a more attractive industry to people to want to operate, knowing it’s a safe industry. Another point I wanted to kind of make, too, just about the nature of the accidents that tend to happen out there, you know, whether it’s a fatality or just a non-fatality, is that a lot of times you can have the most experienced operator, somebody who’s 35, 40 years, 50 years in, but at the end of the day, it kind of comes down to just a momentary lapse of judgment or distraction, not paying attention. I mean, you can take the best operators in the industry and maybe they had a rough night, or they didn’t get a good night’s sleep, or whatever. I mean, something’s on their mind and they just lose track of what they’re doing for that moment. And in that moment, that’s when something unsafe happens. And I think we hear about that being a cause of accidents, regardless of what the type of accident is. And I think that that’s something that mine operators are regularly educating their personnel on to make sure that they’re ready to go out in the field, that they at least know how to operate equipment, what the hazards are within the mine site so that they can best prepare themselves to avoid those potential momentary lapses of judgment or distractions.
JK: Yeah, and I think you mentioned it a little bit earlier, you talk about the way that operations are maybe trying to sort of curtail or maybe have fewer personnel in positions or in situations that they could find themselves in danger. And you know, we’ve talked on the show before about how you’re never going to eliminate people completely from the aggregate industry. You’re never going to be able to go fully automated or fully AI or whatever the case be. But I think, you know, you look at having those people that could be a 30, 40-year veteran, and again, they’re looking the wrong way at the wrong time. They have a momentary lapse of what they need to do. They mistake one thing for another. You look at that and you look at potentially lesser experienced, newer employees. I think those are two things that would obviously be curtailed by having fewer employees or fewer personnel in certain spots.
And that’s where, you know – I feel like we’ve talked about this almost to death at this point on the show – but that’s where something like automation comes in, where I remember when I first started learning about autonomous hauling, which is kind of the big place where we’re seeing autonomy work right now, you know? The first question I thought to ask is, “Okay, well how does this impact safety?” And I was very surprised to learn and find when they’re saying, “No, no, no, this is going to make it safer, because it’s one less person in a truck, there’s fewer people on the haul roads, there’s fewer people in the pit.” It’s all unmanned. You’re taking people out of situations that could find them in danger around powered haulage.
You know, I saw this video that was kind of talking about how their autonomy worked. It showed a video of a guy walking across a hall road on his phone, not paying attention, and the truck was coming up and whatever sensors or whatever technology it had around it, truck came to a stop, the guy realized, “Oh, no!” and he backed away. And once it was clear, the truck kept going. So, I think the more and more this technology and equipment gets incorporated, whether it’s autonomy or whatever it is, and I think the fewer people, again, we can have in harm’s way, obviously, that’s only going to improve things. So hopefully that’s kind of where the future’s headed, especially around something that gets so much attention recently, like powered haulage.
KY: Yeah, the term powered haulage, if you’re not familiar with that, that’s an MSHA characterization of moving things within a mine site. At one point, when they were defining powered haulage, it included conveyor belts. We just saw that the Mine Safety and Health Administration at the end of 2023 released their mobile equipment rule or powered haulage, whatever you want to call it, and doesn’t necessarily relate to belt conveyors, but it’s a lot of other things that are regularly moving about from within an aggregate operation or mine operation. Anything that essentially is wheeled or tracked or skid-mounted that can be moved from one point to another.
For MSHA, powered haulage was something … I feel like probably if you go back two or three years, we started to see that the agency was identifying that this was a problematic area and one that they were trying to get some special attention to, whether it’s through special initiatives or other training in their dialogue with the industry. What’s kind of transpired more recently, we saw, I think it was the last week even of 2023, that MSHA released its final rule on mobile equipment. It’s going to go into effect in July, although the effective date was January 19th. But I guess the requirements there are necessarily ones that have to be followed by by mid-way through 2024. There’s kind of a lot to go through here. Our partners at Ogletree Deakins, Bill Doran and Margo Lopez, recently wrote about this. When you get your February edition here in Pit & Quarry here shortly, you can you can read more fully about it. But Bill and Margo kind of broke down the rule and some of the things that operators need to be aware of.
Jack, one of the things we were talking about before the show here today was this idea of flexibility that MSHA’s trying to put out there to operators, but flexibility can kind of be a good thing and a bad thing, depending on how you’re looking at it, I suppose.
JK: Yeah, you know, it definitely is sort of a double-edged sword. It’s honestly, in a way, kind of refreshing that MSHA is giving some of that flexibility where it’s telling operators in a sense, “Okay, you know your operation, you know what you’re working with, you know your employees. Based on all of that information you have, develop the best plan you can to increase safety and minimize dangers around mobile equipment and powered haulage,” while at the same time what Bill and Margo are kind of arguing, and I think it’s a extremely valid and great point: Say MSHA shows up to one of those operations and the operator shows them their plan, says, “Here’s what we lined up. Took everything you had to say, we made this operation based around what fits best for us. We’re really proud of it, and everything’s been going great.” And MSHA looks it over and then all of a sudden it’s, “Oh, well you don’t have this. You don’t have this. You don’t have this. You don’t have this.” And then the operators left sitting there like, “I thought you said to do what was best for our operation, where’s this coming from?”
The safety programs have to be created and submitted by July 17. Once that comes to be, it’ll be interesting to see what the enforcement looks like, what the plans themselves look like. If these operators are kind of … If they’ll take this flexibility, how far they’ll take it, I guess. If they’ll kind of say, “Oh, well we can do whatever we want, then we’re going to do whatever we want.” Or if there might be some people that are like, “Alright, they’re telling us we can do whatever we want. But we know how MSHA operates. We’re going to need to incorporate some of these things, whether they tell us to or not. We know what they’re going to be looking for. Let’s do the best we can for our people, but there are definitely some boxes we’re going to have to check here to hopefully prevent some issues down the road.”
KY: So, they want a written plan, essentially, is what they’re asking for it to be developed. And for somebody within each mine site to manage that plan. And to your point, Jack, I think the plan could be a six-point plan or could be a six-hundred-point plan. Like, what are the key variables that need to be entailed within each individual operation’s written mobile safety plan? I can see the goalposts moving to and from depending on if there is an incident, or something’s not necessarily in actuality following the plan when an inspector comes on site. I think that could be a problem. But I do think to impart what Bill and Margo have shared through their February column is that, you know, it’s going to be something that’s going to have to be continuously monitored and adapted by mine operators. I think at the end of the day, what everybody wants is safer operations. Operators don’t want more regulation. You know, they don’t want more red tape and to have to be managed any more than they already are by MSHA and any other agency out there. But again, I guess because of the nature of accidents, the powered haulage focus that MSHA has taken … because powered haulage this past year even was, if you’re looking at the fatality reports for 2023, it was 16 of the 40. And then, when you combine powered haulage with machinery that that was about 65 percent of all accidents. So, it’s something to watch. Even some of the requirements, Jack, we were kind of looking through these as again put out by Bill and Margo in their column, and they seem somewhat opaque and not necessarily very specific.
JK: The requirements that MSHA is proposing that a safety plan include: Identifying and analyzing hazards and reducing risks related to mobile equipment movement and operation, developing and maintaining procedures and schedules for routine maintenance and non-routine repairs, identifying currently available and newly emerging feasible technologies to enhance safety and evaluating whether to adopt them, and training miners and other people at the mine necessary to perform work to identify and address or avoid hazards. We were talking earlier, and my first thought when reading all of those, there’s four points, but there’s ten or twelve points total if you look at everything within those four points. I was looking at that and my first thought was, “That kind of seems like stuff people should already be doing anyways.”
KY: And probably are, right?
JK: Yeah, exactly. And that’s where like you said, some of that opaqueness comes in, where it’s like, okay, you need to identify hazards and reduce risks. Okay? Again, what operation isn’t currently doing that. But at the same time, when it comes to mobile equipment and powered haulage, how are you identifying and analyzing? How are you going to reduce the risks? Which again, it’s that flexibility, again, that so people could look at that and say, Oh, great, we can we can do whatever we want to reduce it. But there could be some people … I know if I was in an operator’s shoes, I’d be looking at MSHA like, “How do you want us to do it? Like, give me more. I need some more here.”
The second thing that kind of stuck out to me about that, and Bill and Margo mentioned it in their column is, you know, they talked about MSHA may issue citations if an operator doesn’t carry out what it committed to do in it’s program, which is a valid reason. But what kind of strikes me is they may issue a citation where “a written safety program is deficient on its face,” like face value, which again, goes back to that flexibility. It’s like, alright, well how are you going to know if it’s deficient until MSHA tells you and you get a citation? So it’s almost like a catch-22. You don’t know if it’s deficient until you know it’s deficient. We even kind of talked about it that all of this is seemingly going to be falling on what Margo and Bill, or maybe MSHA, are defining as a responsible person that an operator designates to keep the plan updated, keep the plan enforced. It just strikes me as kind of odd, and I don’t know if unfinished is the right word. But just like you said, very opaque. Not a whole lot of concrete direction here. So it’ll be interesting to see how operators attack this and how MSHA chooses to enforce it.
KY: Yeah, and it’s probably not the first time we’ve seen a final rule like this come forward, and there being maybe a lack of clarity, and wanting a little bit more specificity to a rule. But, hopefully the way this plays out is that the flexibility that’s being put out there at the start here with this mobile equipment rule provides for good leeway, and some latitude by inspectors if there is some sort of issue. Again, at the end of the day, our readers, they’ll tell you this is value number one for them. They’re not trying to put people into a workplace that is going to put them in harm’s way. We hear the phrase that you kind of put out there all the time, you know, the one where, “We want people to go home each night the way they arrived that morning.” And everybody in the aggregate industry values that to the most degree that they possibly could. But this will be one to follow, and I’m sure we’re going to hear more, we’re going to read more from Bill and Margo as safety programs that are written get put out there and as things transpire within operations that maybe go against or don’t fall within that written safety plan for each respective operator. Issues will arise, I think that’s just the nature of how things go. Something to watch. That’s a rule that I thought was gonna come down here in 2024, but it, again, came down at the end of 2023.
And I think the other rule that we’re likely to see come forward here this year is on silica. It’s probably something that we can get into in a later episode, because I feel like that’s one we’ve been talking about for a number of years here at Pit & Quarry in terms of respirable crystalline silica.
But with safety and health being a theme of this podcast, I wanted to talk, too, about a conference that I went to last week up in Ontario, Canada. Our publisher, Rob Fulop, and I ventured up from Cleveland to the Toronto area where the OSSGA had its Operations, Health & Safety Seminar. OSSGA is the Ontario Stone, Sand & Gravel Association. And again, along the same line of safety, Jack, I feel like we’ve seen safety be more front and center with industry events. You and I are out in the industry regularly, our first quarter travel is picking up already. And whereas 50 years ago, it probably wasn’t something that you heard too much about at the meeting, now we’ve got some meetings that are fully dedicated to safety, or at least a big portion of these meetings. And the OSSGA is doing a really good job with that, you know, year in and year out with their Operations, Health & Safety Seminar.
We recently reported about some other events that are going to be happening or recently happened in the safety vein, and, you know, the Missouri Mine Safety & Health Conference is one that took place in January. That’s one that we’ve been hearing a lot more about, and, you know, the content there, that being a valuable event. And the Kentucky Crushed Stone Association, which is run by Nick Rogers, their executive director. I haven’t been to this meeting before, but I know I need to get to it at some point. It’s their safety and education seminar, which is going to take place in Louisville at the end of February. So we see, whether it’s a state or provincial association, or even the national association, NSSGA, and in other entities within the mining industry, that safety is very important. These events, they’re supported by safety committees and individuals from the producer front, manufacturer and services division front. So again, I think it goes to show the value that we’re putting on safety and health as is value number one.
The OSSGA seminar that I was at last week had a lot of good content, some of which I’m gonna try to relay into the pages of Pit & Quarry magazine here in our March issue and beyond. But they have a trade show component, and OSSGA a had record 350 people, which not even from a safety standpoint, goes to show that we’re seeing good attendance at industry events. We’ve seen that in South Carolina and their aggregates association. And, you know, we attended the Ohio Aggregates Association’s event in November, and it’s record numbers that we’re seeing people go out in terms of educating themselves and shopping around for new equipment. Again, I guess events are another area where we’re seeing safety become front and center for our industry, and that’s a good thing.
JK: Yeah, and I’m curious your thoughts, because you’ve obviously been around this industry for a while. Is this something you’ve been seeing? This this emphasis on safety, at least from a meeting and sort of conference perspective, is that something you’ve been seeing kind of as a steady growth? Or do you think this is something that’s more in response to sort of maybe looking at this year in particular, but even over the last couple years, sort of where fatalities have been over the last couple years?
KY: That’s a great question. I think maybe more people are engaging these events because of the value that they’re putting on. Maybe they’re bringing new people. I was talking to Julie Harrington at the OSSGA last week, and I was asking her just about the nature of the people who were coming to her event, and she says that it’s changing. I think that probably others running mining industry or safety-related events in the industry would probably say the same thing. So, we’ve still got these tenured, experienced people coming to get their training and you know, to catch up with their vendors and do those sorts of things that you would do at a trade show or industry meeting or conference.
But we’re seeing more people, as Julie’s putting it from the OSSGA standpoint, seeing more new people come in, some fresh faces, and learning the industry and needing to get more information under their belt so that they can go out and perform, do their jobs a little bit better. So, I think that part of it is changing. I do think that companies have always valued it, or they valued it in recent decades and the priority number one-ness of it has kind of become a bigger thing. But I think the way that safety has kind of evolved almost goes hand-in-hand with some other evolutions that we’ve seen in the aggregate industry over the years. And one of which is community relations. The way that we, as an industry, worked with our neighbors 40 or 50 years ago is vastly different than the way that we work with them here today in 2024.
You go back three, four or five decades ago, and in the typical aggregate operation was trying to hide behind the berm as they always say, and they didn’t want the public, those around the operation to know what was going on inside. That created a negative connotation in communities as to what was happening back there, as if it was suspicious or some shady business. So that mindset has totally changed in, I guess the 80s and the 90s. Now we see way more operations trying to work with their communities, even opening the doors to their operation, so to speak, to come in and check it out. They’ll let people walk on equipment and walk around the equipment. I think it’s given people, you know, having these sorts of community days or picnics or even 5K’s, it’s given people in the communities where pits and quarries are, a greater appreciation for the work that’s being done and helps them understand why that operation is essential to the community, because it’s providing the necessary building materials that help to build the infrastructure and provide the way of life that we have here in this country.
Just like community relations and how that’s grown, I think safety has as well. And again, there’s more work to do on all fronts, I think all producers, all of our readers say the learning and improvement never stops, but good gains have been made in safety, and how those events have taken off, I think that’s been good to see.
JK: Yeah, and I think just one thing I’ll chime in about as far as community relations go, for many longtime veterans in the aggregate industry, and a lot of sort of the bigger names that are still around, when you talk about community relations, there are going to be a lot of people that think of one guy and that’s Dave Thomey, a 2022 Pit & Quarry Hall of Fame inductee. I was lucky enough to get to talk with Dave for the profile I wrote on him for his induction and I just wanted to share … And to say that he was involved in the community would be a vast understatement. He was so proactive in what he did, and I just wanted to share a few of the things that he said from when I spoke with him for his induction profile. He said, “I’m a firm believer that if you’re going to do something, bring your neighbors in. Let them know what you want to do and then listen. We want to work with the surrounding community to make our own small world just a little bit better.”
Another thing that also stuck out to me was he said back when he was working in Maryland Materials, he said he wanted to get all the complaints. He wanted everything to come to him so that he could deal with it head on. He wanted people to personally come to the guy that is running the operations, and because of that, he talked about one instance where a neighbor said her house lost air conditioning because of a blast. And you know, Thomey could have gotten totally defensive and been like, “Oh no, that that wasn’t it.” He told her, “Call an air conditioning expert, call an HVAC guy. Find out what happened and send me the bill.” HVAC guy comes out, finds out the breaker just flipped, no rhyme or reason to it, he flipped it back on, the air conditioning went on and he never heard another word about it, nor did he get the bill. So just his ability and his willingness to be proactive with neighbors, and not essentially, like you said, hide behind that berm – not feel like they’re doing anything wrong, because you’re not, it’s such a crucial industry – I think just stands out so much.
And the last thing I’ll share is one last quote from him that he gave that I think kind of talks about maybe where the industry was around 2022, back when we were doing this profile, because I think some steps have definitely been taken in the last year plus to improve community relations. But he said here, “We are right there with farming as the most important industry in the world. I also believe we do a terrible job of telling people that and getting people to believe that. That’s what I want to do with the rest of my working career. I want to let people know how important and how wonderful this industry is and how it is populated with really, really good people.”
You know, and that’s something I think we’ve seen a lot, people try to get more involved, whether it’s with schools, whether it’s with vocational programs, whether it’s, you know, I think we talked about an experience from Dirt World where a company held a signing day, and people got to sort of put on a hat and sign their letter of intent to go work with this company. You know, I think we’ve definitely seen some strides in that, but like you kind of mentioned, there’s still this negative connotation. I think that if maybe more people took the kind of approach Dave Thomey did and was proactive and really said, “We’re not the bad guys, come see what we’re doing.” I think that would hopefully have a very noticeable and very positive effect on where this industry stands, community relations-wise.
KY: I’m glad you brought your remembrances from that profile for Dave Thomey. It was interesting too, for me going to this OSSGA Operations, Health & Safety Seminar last week, they find a good way to blend operations with health, operations with safety, and they even had a speaker from a producer up in Canada, Miller Aggregates, talk about community relations and some work to kind of relate it to the heartbeat of the meeting, again, being operations, health and safety. But it was Cindy McCarthy of Miller Aggregates who was sharing her company’s story in terms of working with the neighbors. And they actually formed what she characterized or called PEC’s, or public engagement committees. Just like you were kind of saying, Dave kind of getting on the front lines with the neighbors, they created these formalized groups for their operations to bring the neighbors in. And at first, that seems like a bad idea, because essentially you’re laying out all the grievances.
The way Cindy McCarthy of Miller Aggregates kind of described what was happening with these PECs, was that the first meeting was kind of getting to know everybody, and some of the issues, or the perceived issues that the neighbors had. They were able to communicate that because they had access to the producing company. It was just an introduction of sorts, and the next time, the second, third, fourth times that this group got together with the producing company, there was more understanding there, because they were, as the producing company, able to educate and share, “Well, that’s why X, Y and Z happened. ” At the end of the day, the way Cindy kind of put it out there was that the neighbors were the best advocates for them because they felt like they created that connection with the neighbors.
She even shared a story about how … it wasn’t even their truck driver. Because when you’re at a quarry, you’ve got customer trucks coming in, essentially. I guess one sentiment that she shared, or one narrative was how there was a departing truck that had a load of aggregates and was going to a job site, and there was a turtle on the road. And I guess this truck driver got out of his cab and rather than run it over or run around it, you know, he just got out and helped the turtle on its way, or just waited until it made it to the side of the road. I mean, I know it sounds like a silly story, but that made an impression on the neighbor, and I’m sure the neighbor told that story to her friends and others in the community. That sort of story builds good will for the producing company. That’s a case, too, where again, that’s not the actual employee of the site, but trucks in many instances, they kind of represent the quarry. So, there has to be an understanding for anybody coming on site as they’re departing an operation that you need to behave a certain way, you need to drive a certain way. So again, just opening doors and having communication. Again, I know it sounds simple, but that was something that Cindy at Miller Aggregates was talking about as a must for them, and helping to build the relationship with those around them.
So we’ve talked quite a bit, Jack, about committee relations and safety as it relates to our industry. We’re going to hear a little bit more about safety in the weeks to come here as we’re gonna get down to sunny Florida. Getting out of Cleveland, going into the Pit & Quarry Roundtable & Conference down at PGA National Resort. Jack, this is your third Roundtable and it’s going to be … and I haven’t even kept track enough but it’s probably my 10th, 11th, 12th, something like that. But I’m looking forward to getting down and and talking to Bill Doran, again, our partner it Ogletree Deakins.What are you looking forward to as we’re looking at to our travel here, whether it’s safety or something else that’s gonna be on the docket down at PGA?
JK: Yeah, I know we’re trending pretty well with our attendance. You know, one thing I think that is awesome about this event is that it brings people throughout the aggregate sort of flow together. You’ve got dealers, manufacturers, producers, you’ve got state association members, you have, again, Bill Doran with safety. You’ve got Mike Johnson from the NSSGA, we’ve got George Reddin who sort of gives the financial and economic outlook, and I know that’s always sort of the talk of the town, if you will. People are always clamoring to get George’s presentation after. He does a great job. I’m just really looking forward, I think the most, to talking to Roundtable participants about what they’re seeing, as far as technology and equipment goes. I know that’s always sort of one of the meatier topics, if you will, that we talk about.
And I think that there’s, even in the last year, last year being a ConExpo year, obviously we had our Roundtable last year in late January this year, it’s happening on the 1st and 2nd of February. Even in this last year, I think there’s so much that has come out, whether it’s bigger developments or smaller developments, I think hearing what manufacturers are looking at as far as what they’re incorporating into their equipment, hearing from producers as far as what they’re looking for from their equipment and how they’re trying to improve and make their operations more efficient. I’m very much looking forward to what they have to say, and hopefully there’s something that is going on that maybe we haven’t seen or heard a lot about, so then it’s something new that we can explore and start drilling a little deeper on. So, I think there’s gonna be no shortage of things to talk about. Yeah, this being my third year at the Roundtable, I’m incredibly excited and just really looking forward to getting down there.
KY: Same here. We’re planning on I’m doing some video for the podcast in south Florida. We’re going to try to shoot episode eight on site at PGA National Resort as well. I think the plan, Jack, is we’re gonna go through our Roundtable. Once it’s done, we’re gonna get in the video room with producer Marie again, and just kind of break down everything that we heard. So, you can look for episode eight, looks like it’s gonna be on February 13. And we’ll be able to share insights and looking forward to hearing what you hear in your Roundtable room. Because Jack and I, if you haven’t been to a Roundtable, we typically serve as the moderators, and we’re doing that again this year. So we’re covering a lot of topics and it’s I think it’s going to be more than just one podcast episode that we’re going to be able to pull out of that. We’ll talk about everything from equipment and technology to business and M&A and safety. I think we’ll have a lot of run with with our Roundtable as it pertains to the podcast here, and episodes to come. So Jack, anything else you want to add before we get out of here?
JK: I would just be remiss if I didn’t ask you, is there anything you’re most looking forward to? Obviously, you’re a grizzled veteran of the Roundtable at this point. Is there anything sort of sticking out to you this year?
KY: I think the equipment technology, as you mentioned, is always interesting. And we’ve got a panel of four producers who are going to be sharing kind of their approach and how they go about piloting projects. I think that’s something I’m looking forward to. I think, for me, the Roundtable is always a really good opportunity to kind of just refresh everything that’s happening for myself out in the industry. You know, it’s either confirmation or maybe it provides me with some new information, where, as the editor of the magazine, I can take that in and help to plan our storytelling for the months and issues to come.
Another thing that kind of comes out of it for me is you know, we get a lot of content out of out of the Roundtable, and every April, as long as we have the Roundtables in January and February, we every April publish our report, kind of recapping and sharing highlights from those conversations. But really I think I’m looking forward to kind of just seeing everybody because we’ve got some veterans returning and, you know, a good number of new people. It’s been great to see the growth of the Roundtable over the years. I think it’s really taken off in the last seven or eight. We’ve had it at some fantastic venues and I know there’s a lot of excitement about it being down at PGA National Resort. But, you know, as I look outside and see that we’ve got gray skies here in Cleveland, it’s gonna be good to see the sun here in a bit. So maybe that’s what I’m looking forward to most.
JK: Yeah, no, I don’t blame you. And I think like you said, just to kind of put a bow on my thoughts on the Roundtable. First two years, I think Pit & Quarry always does a great job picking stellar locations, but I think I’ve really kind of lucked out, having been able to go to Chateau Elan in 2022 and Braselton, Georgia, going to the Biltmore in Florida last year, and now go into PGA National. Appreciate you guys picking some good locations here. Obviously stellar spots to be, and, obviously, sort of secondary to the conversations that are going to be happening, but like you said, certainly nice to have a good looking venue, and hopefully some sun as well.
KY: I’m sure we’re gonna get some questions as to where the 2025 Roundtable is going to be. It’s so weird even saying 2025. It’s only a year off, but we have a tendency to go to South Florida every year. I think it’s been in Florida every year we’ve hosted it in a January or February, with the exception of the Chateau Elan one, and I think one that predates you that we had in North Carolina, but those were COVID-impacted. I know for our attendees, whether it’s our partners, them being the manufacturers and dealers and service providers, or our producers, people like going to South Florida in January or February. You can’t really beat that if you’re coming from a cold weather climate, so it’s gonna be good. It’ll be fun and look forward to getting back on on camera and getting the podcast rolling out once we’re done with the 2024 Roundtable, Jack.
JK: You know, it can’t wait.
KY: Well for Jack Kopanski, I’m Kevin Yanik. Thanks for joining us, and we’ll see you next time.
